Transcript
Episode 74: "Networks and Networking -- More Than a Cocktail Party" - with J. Kelly Hoey
Carol Fishman Cohen: welcome to three, two, one. I relaunch the podcast where we discuss strategies, advice, and success stories about returning to work after a career break. I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, the chair and co-founder of I relaunch and your host for today. Today we welcome Kelly Hoey, networking expert, speaker, and author of build your team. Dream network, Kelly and I have been a speaker at conferences together, and I'm a big fan of her. So I'm really excited to have this conversation with her about networking networks and special advice for relaunch. Hi Kelly. Thanks for joining us today.
Kelly Hoey: Um, my listeners could see me. I'm beaming, you know, ear to ear on this. Recording morning because it's been a, I was a, you said you're a big fan of mine. I've been a big fan of the work that you've been doing for some time.
Carol Fishman Cohen: Thank you so much. Well, I want to dive right in and, , before talking about the whole topic of networking and networks, Can you give us a little background about how you landed, where you are today? Because I know you don't start out a career as a networking expert, speaker and author. You must have started somewhere else. So can you give us a little background on that please?
Kelly Hoey: Yeah. Sometimes in life, you end up where you least imagined or expected. , so I am an attorney by, by, I want to say education and training practice law for 11 years, , had that kind of career itch, , too.
Yeah, I want to say, do something more. And I say that sort of with a hesitancy, because I loved practicing law, , and, , went to make a career change in 2002 over to the management side. And we should maybe come back to more detail on that. Cause that was, , you know, maybe, , applicable time period. When I think about relaunches, , cause it, it was an 18 month.
Um, time period that it took me to make that career change. So I do have that gap in my resume, , where people were like, heck what were you up to there, ms. Hoey, , moved over to the management side for five and a half years. Um, then had the chance, , I was very active member in 85 broads. And people will remit some people.
I was one of the early 85 broads members too, when it was still called 85 broads.
So I became a very active member in 85 broads, uh, back in 2009, uh, because of, , the management role I was in, in the law firm building up their alumni program. And Janet offered me the opportunity to become the first president of 85 broads.
Carol Fishman Cohen: Just clarify Janet that's janet Hanson was the founder of 85 broads. And just for historical perspective, 85 broads was acquired by Sallie Krawcheck, who now runs it as the elevate network.
Kelly Hoey: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it's so funny when, when that transaction happened, people would say to me, Kelly, did you know what was going on? And I'm like, yes, I was part of the due diligence.
Carol Fishman Cohen: So you were heading 85 broads. Okay.
Kelly Hoey: Yeah. So yeah, Janet was, yeah, Janet was intrigued on, on what I was doing, but I sort of threw myself in, is this, you know, very active member of, uh, 85 broads because learning about it and being involved in the network was helping me do the job. I was in building an alumni program, but that activity caught her eye.
And so she called me to sort of say like, You're asking interesting questions and you've arrived on the scene in the network and you're doing all this stuff. Tell me about you. And when I did at the end of, you know, an hour long phone call, she said, you know, maybe this is another lesson for relaunchers.
At the end of the hour long phone call. She offered me an opportunity that hadn't existed an hour before. Uh, and so I became the first president and did that for a year. And that just. I'm gonna say not only opened my network further in terms of how I perceived myself in it. It also gave me a chance to kind of think, Oh, okay, what else can I do? Because I'd had a very limited mindset. Before 85 broads. And before that opportunity, a very limited mindset of what was my potential. I was a lawyer by training. I had been in big law firms, um, both in Toronto, in, in New York. Um, I imagined, um, You know, I had been manager of professional development, uh, and then manager of alumni programs, you know, in all honesty, the best I could have imagined back in 2009 before the call from Janet was, Oh, you know, maybe I can go and build an alumni program.
At a big four accounting firm, like, and I say that was like total sarcasm, but I, I mean, I didn't see myself in the light that I'm sitting in now. Um, I sort of managed, I had a skill set that would then be transferable to. You know, like I said, a big four, you know, clearly another law firm. Um, you know, maybe, maybe there would have been a corporation.
I didn't imagine this startup. I didn't imagine. Um, you know, in all honesty, I didn't imagine writing a book, uh, but. This opportunity opened up all this other stuff. And, you know, the universe has a funny way of, you know, keeping you humble and reminding you that you should keep pursuing and not, you know, kind of that when people say, how do you take risk?
And I'm sort of always about, you know, what, when you know, you have a marketable skill set and every once in a while, I'll get an email typically through LinkedIn, from a recruiter. Looking to place me back in a law firm and in a marketing or professional development role. And it's that moment that I'm always like, okay, I should keep going.
Cause I know I can always go back.
Carol Fishman Cohen: Right. Well, it's so interesting. Even before we're getting into the meat of the discussion on networking and networks, you're, you're already demonstrating like. Be open. Like you were, you didn't even know that you were being open. You, you were, but you had this conversation and it led to something that you weren't even thinking about, , in terms of a job opportunity and also in terms of your own skillset and where it could be applied.
And like you said, a limited mindset of, of your potential. So, wow.
Kelly Hoey: You think about, you think about the question that Janet asked me. She didn't say, what's your title? You know, and what's your, whatever. , at the law firm, she's like, tell me about what you do. And I get a very detailed description of the types of activities I was up to in the way I thought about the job, the role I was in.
And when you think about it that way, all of a sudden, it's this like sort of this bundle of experiences and skillsets. Well, that can go a lot of places. Um, you know, sort of wedded to a title or, you know, the maybe particular types of interactions, right. You know, that might have kept me in a very narrow swim lane.
You know, that might've kept me in law firm management, one of these two roles, Oh, maybe she'll veer into the next swim lane and head to an accounting firm. But you know, like I said, I had a very narrow perspective on where my opportunities were and what the reality is that that skillset I had had far more applicability and for far more opportunities and I had ever imagined.
Carol Fishman Cohen: So what happened after that?
Kelly Hoey: uh, co-founded a startup accelerator, got really involved in the startup community. Um, you know, life took another interesting twist and I was like, okay, you know, I, um, say the sort of life, circumstances of divorce and all of that. And I said, okay, you know, this accelerating thing is a nice gamble, but I don't have that luxury anymore.
I need to. You know, I need to really figure out what I want to do with my life. Uh, and, uh, in the course of that, sort of introspective period, a couple of people reached out to me, um, seeking my insights on networking for their books on networking. And that was when I sort of had this aha moment or maybe it was looking at the universe going, okay, I got it.
I got it. Now what my skillset is, I'm listening. Thanks. Um, and uh, I sort of thought, well, What the, what, you know, if I'm the experts expert on networking. And if I'm being told by these other successful authors that I have this very unique perspective that no one else has, and they really need it for their books, maybe I should write a book, like, hold on, hold on a minute here.
Uh, and so that was late 2014. Um, and then I started on that odyssey. So that was 2015, was writing a book proposal, getting a literary agent, um, landing a publisher, uh, and uh, so forth and so on. And here we are. Yeah, 2015 too. And yeah, it was a writing 2016 was. Um, yeah, getting all of that stuff. 2016 was delivering the manuscript and the editing and all the rest of it.
In 2017, the hardcover was leased 2018 paper backers released. And yesterday I finalize the cover for the Chinese edition. So look at that. Kelly's been on the same career for what were we talking about for years? How amazing people will be impressed with me.
Carol Fishman Cohen: That's so exciting about a Chinese edition. That's awesome. Um, so, and did you, were you doing starting to do a lot of speaking while you were writing the book? Like how did your speaking career develop? Was it. Sort of alongside the writing or it happened just recently. How did that, how did that happen?
Kelly Hoey: Yeah, I mean, some of that started, uh, back when I was still working in the law firm, uh, because of being involved in professional organizations and, um, then, and getting frustrated with other people who are mostly being moderators of panels and things, and going "forget this, I'm organizing these things, I'm going to get on stage." Uh, and so there was that there was a speaking that started when we, when I was involved with 85 broads in terms of, you know, Janet -fantastic- would organize things and then she'd look at me and go, "yeah, anyway, you're the one who's going to be the MC." And I'm like, "what?" Uh, so, so really being in many ways, being forced into, um, a speaking role, um, again, God, I mean, I was a corporate attorney. I didn't seek the microphone and the, you know, the litigators limelight.
So there was all of that. Uh, and then in, when I was involved in the accelerator, I realized the time I put my book proposal together. Cause it's one of those things that a lot of people don't realize. It's one thing to write a book, but you also have to market your own book, whether or not you have a publisher or not that there was so much of the groundwork that, um, the publishers were expecting to see that I had been laying out for years before.
Unknowingly. Uh, so the public speaking, um, the, um, right, you know, previously writing, you know, you know, in terms of blogging, I, you know, really got involved as sort of, sort of testing that as a tool, again, back to 85 broads. So writing, uh, where, you know, contributing to, um, other publications, all of that kind of stuff.
And. That all became quite essential when I put my book proposal together and was like, Oh, they expect all of that too. And a book. Hmm. Okay.
Carol Fishman Cohen: Wow. Well, listen, let's talk about networking and networks. And, and can you tell us on the, I'm just thinking about your whole background and how you ended up where you are today and how it must be informed, um, everything you're about to talk about, but, um, how do you define networking and networks?
Kelly Hoey: So from being a lawyer and, you know, wedded to the billable hour and expected to do client development, you know, I got to ground it. And all of that, I think of networking is every single human interaction. It's not the run around and meet strangers at cocktail parties.
The thing that scares us, um, you know, I'd like to think of build your dream network is sort of Alka seltzer for the networking, anxious people out there. But, uh, it's, it's everything we do. I mean, we're all. I said, we live in a, in a crazy 24, seven hyper-connected world. We all have immense demands on our time.
And the last thing we can all think about is somebody, you know, taking our time or adding more things on or doing that to somebody else. So I sort of look at it and say, well, how can you do what you're already doing a little bit better? How can be a little. Smarter. Where are the, I want to say that the tweaks that you can make to make stronger connections and to network out to the world, what it is that you need want and desire versus adding in a bunch of more sort of superficial crap that it's not going to get you where you want to go.
Carol Fishman Cohen: So that's every human interaction is the networking. And then what about the networks part? Because I have to say, I, you know, I'm a relauncher myself. Um, and of course we have hundreds, thousands of relaunchers that we work with on, through the iRelaunch community. And we're all very worried about our networks because when we're on long career breaks, we pretty much let our professional networks go dormant and then we need to resurrect them again.
And that is one of the challenges of relaunching. And we have a lot of strategies about it, but I'm very interested in your take on that.
Kelly Hoey: Yeah. That's always, that's always an interesting one. And you know, someone, one of those things you think about is there's a lots of an, you know, Sort of a poor setup for someone who is completely let the network drop, but we have so many more tools today that we can keep a network, a dormant network alive.
And it doesn't mean you have to be at the happy hour every Friday that you might've been at, you know, when you worked on wall street or whatever the case may be, um, you know, you think about a holiday card you think about. Uh, social tools, um, you know, you know, there was a piece, I think it was in the wall street journal that sort of said the, the downside of, of the lack of Facebook use is people are forgetting other people's birthdays.
And I'm like being kind of that to me, I've been relying on Facebook for that, but just wishing someone, a happy birthday once a year may be enough to keep a network. The wife, you know, I, um, the cover of my book was picked by, um, You know, I was an attorney that I used to always work with. He was in house counsel and did all the CMBS deals that I was on and Dante and I get together for a drink or dinner once a year.
And, and I stopped practicing law in 2002. But we had such a great working relationship that, you know, it's kind of just happens and, you know, luck would have it. He and I had dinner the night I needed to finalize the cover for my, you know, my book and he picked the cover. Uh, so thank you, Dante. I'll give you another shout out again, but so there there's there's ways to do it.
And so if someone thinks, Oh my God, I haven't kept it alive. The first thing I would step back and say, is that really true? But if you've been liking someone's post, if you congratulated them on a, on a promotion or a job thing, you know, like, because you saw an update on LinkedIn, then you've been keeping it alive.
The question then comes what's the, what's the outreach, what's the network. What's the thing that you do. You know, when you want to, you know, make, make that big ask. Um, the other piece is I would say to people who have kind of let it go dormant, like you got an easy and thoughtfully, um, I had an outreach.
From a former colleague. Uh, so she had been an associate at the firm where I had been manager professional development, and she reached out to me on LinkedIn with an outreach email. And it was like eight years after we had worked together. And what she did in writing, it was like the equivalent of that beautiful handwritten note.
And what she did in that communication was resurrect the beauty of a working relationship from eight years before, like it brought back all the feelings and she had clearly done her research on me. This is sort of when, you know, Good stocking on the internet versus the creepy stalking on the internet.
She commented on what I had been up to and she said, you know what? I've been following your posts. And I've just been amazed where your career has gone and congratulations on the book and this, that the other thing. And she's like, and she did start the message off with, you know, you may not remember me.
You remember good working relationships. You remember really great positive relationships. And so she then said, Hey, in case, this is what I've been up to. And she told me, and I'm like, Oh my God, you ain't gone from a litigator in New York to, you know, running a law firm in, um, I think it was in Nairobi and you've had twins and like, it was all this exciting stuff.
It was like, You know, it's kind of great reading, you know, it's like, ah, catching up with this person. And then she said, and I understand you're busy, but here's one of the reasons I wanted to reach out. And she showed where the intersection of her life and my life were right now. And she really wanted to get a piece of advice, but because she had set it up in such a lovely way, It was, it was, it was absolute pleasure and she was very specific in what she was seeking from me.
So the difference between saying, Hey, I'm thinking about getting involved in startups and I was wanting to seek, if I could seek your advice, that would have not been a vet, you know, kind of. Reach the same enthusiasm with me instead, she was like, like hyper specific on what she was doing, the app. She was, you know, developing with someone, dah, dah, dah, dah.
That no problem. I can encapsulate that one. I can focus on it. So that's the other thing I think in terms of. You know, not only do you have a network, is it truly dormant? How are you reaching out in? Are you doing the homework beforehand? Not just going, Oh yeah. I'll you know, let me call so-and-so they'll know what to do.
Hey, so-and-so um, You know, getting my career back in order and need your help, you know, me wrong answer. Uh, you know, where's the research, where's the thoughtfulness. And then where is a very focused, targeted ask because you know, that, that is the area we're hesitant to go to. Um, you know, kind of like, you know, I don't know what it is.
People like to make sort of the general like broad ask, but no, no, no, no, no. The hyper-specific one like a, like a dark board. That is the one that is more likely to get you responses then the big general, Hey, I'm looking for a job again. And I like to pick your brain.
Carol Fishman Cohen: Yes. I'm so glad to hear you give that advice and yeah.
Um, I, I'm going to ask you a follow up in just a second, but I just want to remind those of you who might you just tuning in that you are listening to three, two, one I relaunch. And this is your host, Carol Fishman Cohen. And I'm speaking with Kelly Hoey. Networking expert speaker and author of build your dream network.
And we're in the middle of a conversation about resurrecting networks. Um, you know, Kelly, I remember when I was relaunching, um, cause I was on career break for 11 years. Every year I would go to an annual Christmas party that was thrown by my old boss of my old company, which didn't even exist anymore.
The company went under, but he continued to have this. Big reunion, Christmas party. And every year I'd go and every year I'd say I was on career break. And then finally in year 10, I said, you know, I'm thinking about going back to work. And boy, people were so excited and supportive and I was only seeing them once a year.
So a great illustration of, of, of the point that, that you're making. And this other point that you're saying about the very specific ask, um, it's something I want to dig into a little deeper because we relaunch or get. Again, worried about being perceived as opportunistic. And we do caution relaunches against going in.
You know, you're not going to just talk to someone you haven't seen in 10 years or been in contact with and say, can you help me get a job? You, you need to a, be very specific and be, as you're saying, ease in thoughtfully, I love that. Um, and you know, Mo move away from that. Can you help me get a job ask because how do you re you rebuild these relationships again, from that, that kind of thoughtful, initial outreach that you were describing your former coworker did.
Kelly Hoey: I'd like to say to people, send the communication that you would be happy receiving, like picture yourself in the other person's shoes. Like when I say that, like picture their day, their life, their desk, their whatever, we live messy, complicated lives. Um, you don't, you know, And, and you just sort of go like, Oh, right.
Like, Oh God, they always have a 10:00 AM meeting. Why am I trying to call them at 10:00 AM? You know, you know what I mean? Like really get into that head because some of this, your, your, your communication, your asked their desire to help you, um, what may be sort of holding them back maybe the time of day that you're sending the email.
Um, and it may be this other thing, which, which I always sort of think about it, like asking someone to like, Hey, You know, can you help me find a job? I'm like, do you want your old job back? Are you looking for a new, like, are you looking for a startup job? Are you looking for a job at, uh, like, what is it like now you've given me a weighty heavy, like undefined thing to help you with.
And I can't sort of speaking for somebody who receives those kinds of emails. I can't help you with that one. Like, that's what I want to, you know, cut. Oh, the dog ate my email. Like I want it to go away when I receive that kind of thing. When someone says something hyper-specific to me, I can deal with it.
I can say, I don't know that person. I don't know, have any contacts at that company or I could say, wow, that's interesting that you're looking for that. Um, You're looking for X role at Y company. Um, I don't know anyone at Y, but I know that Z company is looking for that. Would you consider them like, I, if I can't give you the specific, I can give some, give you something that is relevant within range, um, or I can give you someone better to talk to about it, but the amorphous, Hey.
Yeah. I'm thinking about getting back into work and, you know, and, and it's different from when you may be. Exploring ideas and brainstorming with someone about what is, where is your like new homes for your existing skillset. Uh, but if you really like, Hey, this is the job I want to go for when you're reaching out to your network, like go for that jugular, like, this is what I'm looking for.
Carol Fishman Cohen: Yeah. You, you know, sometimes we tell people to when they're getting back in touch for the first time, like. After they connect on LinkedIn or something. And it's been eight, 10 years to say that you're on career break, but then go right into the, and I'm in information gathering mode.
So they know that you're not asking them for a job and then ask them stuff about like, what experts do you follow? Like one of these. I don't want to say it's a softball question, but it's an easier question to answer. It's uh, I'm hearing you though say something slightly different. It's the specificity of the ask.
That is really key.
Kelly Hoey: Yeah, totally, totally key. And, and again, I mean, when you think about it, cause sometimes people get kind of the people who are reaching out. There's sort of thing. Oh, well, it's going to be weird if I tell them that I've been following them and watching their articles, it's like, yo, we're putting information out there in the internet, wanting people to read it to start.
I don't want people to know about guess what? I'm not posting it. That's hidden away and you're not seeing pictures of it. Um, you know, I was at an opening of, on, on Broadway last night. You don't know who I was with. Uh, but you do know it wasn't an opening on Broadway, so, you know, people do. So, you know what?
There's a, there's an Einstein quote, where he is asked if he had an hour to solve a problem, how he would eat, how would he do it? And he says, I would spend 55 minutes thinking about it and five minutes solving it. I think what we do when we're doing outreach, when we're networking, so to speak, we rush into action.
And when I'm saying to people and what I'm hearing, you're, you're saying to your relaunchers is slow down. Think research apply the intelligence, um, and the problem-solving and the critical thinking that you've used in your career, apply that to your networking and spend more time plotting. And at the end of the day, if you move from having a hundred lists list of a hundred people, you are going to reach out to to five, I would say rock and roll.
Cause now you're going to get five useful conversations as opposed to sending out a hundred spam emails.
Carol Fishman Cohen: Right. So let me just ask you a slightly different topic. Um, uh, very specific question about references. So let's say you're networking and you're, you're a relaunch, or you've been out for 14 years and you know that at some point.
You're going to need to have a few people who were, will vouch for you and act as references. Do you include, you do reach out to your boss from 14 years ago and make that ask or do you have to figure something else out?
Kelly Hoey: W w why not? Why not? Like, and it wasn't once it gets to a, to a reference point or, or you're, you know, that you're going to be getting some interviews and you're gonna need that reference.
Why not? Because that's, that's a very specific thing to ask someone for, Hey, I worked for you. I know it's been 14 years, but I worked for you for these years. You know? Um, the roles I'm looking for are particularly going to rely on this skillset. Um, and those were the ones that I applied all the time when I was working for you or on these perspect projects.
Can you, can you write me a letter? I mean,
you're almost scripting it out for the person to jog their memory and kind of give them language that they would actually use in the letter itself, which makes it easier for them to say
yes. Yeah. Like maybe like get like that's exactly it. Get it, get it, make it.
I think you're hitting the nail on the head. The easier you can make it for someone. To, to undertake something else in their busy schedule and, you know, easier and, and yes, jog memories. Cause you know, Yeah, all of us get a little bit, you know, little older and I don't blame it on age. I kind of think of the brain, like, uh, you know, like the hard drive on your computer, like the memory there's too much memory has been taken off and you got to dump some stuff out of it.
So we dumped stuff out of it that, you know, like it, you know, so, so, um, jogging someone's memory. So they're like, Oh, that's right. That was that file. I threw out, let me pull it back into my head and, and write that letter. Give them give them the person that, you know, give them the language that give them, give them a prompt so they can do it for you.
Carol Fishman Cohen: You know? And you're also automatically answering one of the other questions that we get a lot from relaunches is should I reach out to that person from a long time ago? A will they remember me and B will they be mad at me because I haven't been in touch. Like, how would you respond to that?
Kelly Hoey: Have have they called you like seriously?
We all have, we all have met, uh, go, go back to what I said earlier. We all have messy, complicated lives. Like if you have, you know, been ignoring their communications and then all of a sudden it's like, Oh, Hey, Hey, Hey, you're useful to me. You know? I have a, uh, a high school, um, friend who it's like clockwork now every seven years when she needs something she reaches out and is sort of like, all right, let's forget the countdown.
Let's see what doozy of an ask I get in seven years. And it is entirely one sided. It is entirely self-interested. And, um, I now get to the point of, I enjoy, you know, sort of Mackey Velien demented way, figuring out how I can lightly decline.
Carol Fishman Cohen: That's so funny,
Kelly Hoey: I've already given an example of someone who had less of a relationship with, in some ways, because it was, you know, it was the manager, this was the associate, but someone else can send me a really feel good email.
And I'm just like jumping through the computer screen and excitement and trying to figure out ways to help them. So it's all in, you know, that kind of care. And we there networking by definition is self-interested. But. Take the self-interest of somebody else. Somebody else may feel really good in giving you that reference.
Why would you want to deny them that just make it easy for them to do? Um, somebody else may be in their self-interest maybe connecting talent with a company that really needs it. And then they're like, boom, you know, Aren't you know, is that good for my ego? I helped my friend who's the hiring manager and I helped someone who I used to work with.
Boom, like how great would you feel doing that? So some of this, when you think about your own, self-interest in searching for a job, put the other person's self-interest and don't underestimate the value of making someone else, making themselves feel good for helping somebody else. Right.
Carol Fishman Cohen: And then I'll, let me ask you a couple other tactical questions. Um, I'm thinking text, email, LinkedIn phone calls. Do you recommend one medium over the other? And let's say you are reaching out to someone in the email. What, what do you edit? It's been a really long time. What is a good subject line?
Kelly Hoey: Oh, that that's, that's a great question. I mean, listen, there's all of those kinds of things.
I think one of the things I always say to people is like, you know, connect with people. If you weren't connected to them before on LinkedIn, when you left your job, um, you know, connect with them now and always personalize the message. It doesn't need to be long. Um, it could be as simple as, Oh, you know, delighted, delighted, LinkedIn recommended that you and I should connect, um, looking forward to, you know, Reviving our friendship or, you know, like great, great to be back, you know, have you have you back in my, you know, universe again, whatever it may be.
It just doesn't need to be a little one-liner or don't don't use the default. I'd like to connect you on LinkedIn. The default message always personalize it because even just that little one-liner is more likely that someone is going to connect with you. Um, and then when you do reconnect on LinkedIn, you've got each other's eyeballs.
And you've got it in a way that is, um, I want to say it's, it's much less intrusive than landing in someone's email, inbox or voicemail in my mind because someone using LinkedIn can choose how and when they have someone in their line of sight, and then I would say to a relaunch or like start using LinkedIn, like maybe you do post.
Articles or, or, you know, information that you're reading. Maybe you comment on, you know, the th the posts that are happening from the people that you are reconnected with. Um, because that, again, starts to build the relationship, think of that, some of this stuff like the, the LinkedIn liking or. Let's just focus on that as opposed to posting an update or an article.
How was that? Not different than, you know, when you were standing around, you know, in the office, listening to somebody else, talk about some recent, you know, whether it was research or deal or whatever it may be, and you're standing there and kind of nodding and agreeing, Hey, thanks for sharing that information.
That's to me is the digital equivalent of that. And that starts to build that rapport. Um, and it may also be that then when you do an email outreach, you can say, God, I love been loving the articles that you've been posting. Did you ever see this one? You know, how, how is it that you can help that other person, how, you know, and sometimes acknowledging like some of us posting so much online, just like to know that someone's read things right now, you're asking me like, you know, throwing things into an echo chamber.
, and so, you know, there we go, , you know, and know, email, subject lines, those are always kind of a, um, a tricky kind of a thing. You know, again, there's an element of how can you write something that is, you know, attract their attention, but not come across as kind of smarmy and, you know, kind of jerkish , how do you write something that doesn't get through it, doesn't get caught by a spam filter if someone's still working in a company.
and, I just, I sort of default to, you know, keep it, keep it clean, keep it simple , and then in the email, you know, be direct, , and sort of, you know, but if you've already sort of established. Some sort of a rapport that may have started. Like I say, as simply as being on LinkedIn and connecting that way, you know, sort of like, Hey, this is this, this is what I'm looking for , and this is why I'm reaching out to you and, and really let them know why they're the one to help you, but also by them helping you, how it is beneficial to them.
Carol Fishman Cohen: That's very helpful. Thank you. I we're running out of time, so I want to, um, Combine the final question that we asked people about our best piece of your best piece of advice for our relaunch, your audience even if it's something we've already talked about, but I also want to ask what your top three networking tips are for relaunchers. So maybe that's almost the same question, but I want to know , after you give those tips, can you comment on whether those tips are any different for relaunchers than they would be for non relaunchers?
Kelly Hoey: Probably not probably, I would think, I would think no, no different, because you know, one of my things is, , you know, like do your research and be prepared before you're, before you step out there and, and understand what your specific goal is, you know? Uh, my problem with generic networking, advices, you know, there's often the advice about, alright, go to one event, have your business cards. And I'm like, yeah, but if you don't know why you're doing an activity, you hesitate and you don't continue it. Uh, so what is your specific goal? So rather than my advice would be, rather than starting your networking with thinking about the activity, I want you to think about what your goal is. All right.
What is your specific goal? And you may have within a bigger goal, you may have two or three smaller goals who is the network that is like, who are the people? The network. It could be a community. It could be a professional association, could be who are the network? Who are the people who can help you achieve that goal.
Now, where is the best place to connect with them? And that's where you get, have to get hyper-specific because it may be G it may be your old boss. Oh yeah. You know that old boss, she really hates email. She's a, she's a co you know, meet for coffee person. Well, guess what, you're going to have to get off your doofus and go and have coffee with her.
Uh, you know, Hey, the other person I need to reach to, they're a text person. Don't ask them for coffee, but start with like, you know, if you're a spreadsheet person, you put this in the spreadsheet. If you're like me and you like sticky notes, you can, whatever. But yeah. First brainstorming and drill down on what are your specific goals and get hyper specific, not like, Hey, I need a job.
Like, what are the, what are the, Oh, I need information. I need information on X roles. Alright. Within X roles with each X role, who is the right person or community to give you the answer now, how do I connect with them? And. Start teasing it out that way. And you're, someone's going to listen to this and say, Oh my God, that's going to take time.
Well, do you want to spend the time sending out, you know, a hundred random resumes and get no answers or do you want to send out. A small number of well thought out, you know, communications and get a response.
Carol Fishman Cohen: This is so important. I I'm so glad that you said this because we have relaunched your, so it will come to us and they'll say, you know, I sent a hundred resumes out and I didn't hear a single thing. And usually we say, yeah, that's right. It's not a very effective way of, uh, getting to, uh, to a job opportunity. What yours saying is, is, is much more labor, intensive, much harder, but also much more fruitful.
Kelly Hoey: Well, I'm going to say a different distribution of your labor. Because it takes time to send out a hundred resumes.
So how do you, yeah, how do you want to spend that time? And, and, and, you know, um, you think about the response rate that you want to have and the impact, you know, the, the impact you want to have on your own career. Like, just be smarter and think about it. I mean, there's a great case study in my book. It w it relates to getting a job after nine 11, um, uh, in, in the really tough job market that was at the time.
Uh, but I think Jessica pelts is, uh, approach as a college grad seeking a Madison Avenue job at a time where there was no roles and having to cold email and how she did it. I think her roadmap is really applicable in this situation because she did the research. She did targeted emails. She let the person know why her skillset, how she understood the challenge they were in the market.
They were in what they needed in a skillset and boom customize it. And in a time when roles weren't being created and, and people were being laid off. She landed the job.
Carol Fishman Cohen: Wow. Well, that's a great reason for people to read your book, build your dream network. Um, and it's a great place for us to end our conversation today.
Kelly, even though I'd love it to go on for longer, we're, we're already way over time and that went by so fast. So thank you for joining us. And can you tell us how people can find out more about your work?
Kelly Hoey: So, thank you so much. It's been such yes. We could talk all day on this. Cause I'm jazzed up on a Friday morning having this conversation.
Find [email protected] that's my website or I'm on LinkedIn. I'm you know, J Kelly Hoey. and , damn those parents calling me by my second name that they gotta have that initial there or on Twitter at J K Hoey.
Carol Fishman Cohen: And can you spell out your website? So people have the exact spelling.
Kelly Hoey: Sure. It is J K E L L Y H O E Y.
Dot C O
dot C. Oh
yeah. I'm a.co.
Carol Fishman Cohen: Okay. Got it. Thank you. All right. Thanks Kelly. For joining us.
Kelly Hoey: Thank you.
Carol Fishman Cohen: You've been listening to three, two, one. I relaunch the podcast where we discuss strategies, advice, and success stories about returning to work after a career break. I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, the chair and co-founder of I relaunch and your host. For more information on iRelaunch go-to irelaunch.com. And if you liked this podcast, be sure to rate it on iTunes and your favorite podcast platform, and be sure to share this podcast with a friend on Facebook, Twitter, and other social media. Thanks for joining us.
