Transcript

Episode 47: What Really Matters to Your Future Employer - with Marc Cenedella

 Carol Fishman Cohen: welcome to three, two, one. I relaunch the podcast where we discuss strategies, advice, and success stories about returning to work after a career break. I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, the chair and co-founder of I relaunch and your host for today. Today, we are thrilled to have the ladders founder, Mark send Adela.

As our guest, I have admired Mark as a leader in the career space forever and have been quoting his advice, especially his article on how not to embarrass yourself when doing the elevator pitch since 2010, when it came out, we're going to be talking about elevator pictures and a lot more today. Mark. Welcome to three, two, one. I relaunch. 

Marc Cenedella: Hey, thanks so much for having me. Well, thank you for being here. 

Carol Fishman Cohen: Um, as I mentioned, we are big fans of your advice on elevator pitches, and we have referenced you on many occasions, including at our I relaunch conferences and in our new return to work roadmap online product.

And now that we are talking to live and in-person, um, would you give us some advice please? On, um, How a real launcher, which is someone who has taken a career break and now wants to go back to work would think about and come up with the elevator pitch. Should it include the career break or should it be more passion focused as you advise people in general?

I'm assuming w who have not taken? 

Marc Cenedella: Sure. Well, great again, thanks for having me excited to be on the podcast. The returner to, uh, to work has to think about. What the person who's ultimately going to hire them is looking for it to a certain extent. It doesn't matter what they did or did not do in terms of a break.

Uh, previously what the, what their future boss is looking for is somebody who can contribute. We can do the job and can help that boss achieve their goals this quarter, or this year, you know, this month, the elevator pitch really needs to be focused on. How you're bringing your passion to a set of problems that could be relevant to that future boss.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Got it. And, um, can you give us an example from that piece and actually just in general of how you do the elevator pitch regardless of, of a career break or not. So people can get a sense of your approach. So overall it's, you know, uh, expressing what you've done and what you want to do with enthusiasm. Uh, what you're looking to do next and why you think you're a great fit, those four things.

Marc Cenedella: So it might be, um, I I've been a leading expert in advertising for years. I'm I love the advertising space because, uh, getting messages out to consumers is fascinating to me. I'm looking to do it again in consumer packaged goods. And I think I'd be terrific, uh, for your brand Acme, because you guys are doing a lot of interesting things in.

Canned a Bitcoin and I'd be terrific in helping you get that, uh, that message out. Um, that's what an elevator pitches, those four sentences. And so thinking about, you know, how much do I talk about my break? Nobody is going to hire you because of your break. Uh, so it's got relatively little to do with your future boss.

Other than you might feel that you need to explain it or. No, why you've got a three or four or six year gap in your work history. Um, so might say in your elevator pitch, uh, now that I'm returning to the workforce, after raising a family, I'm looking to do such and such, but overall for a pitch, when we're talking about the 30 seconds, that you're really encapsulating your value to a future employer, I think you really want to stay with.

That value you're delivering rather than something else, uh, about your, you know, um, a personal or a professional situation that doesn't necessarily directly. Communicate that value, you know, I'm glad to hear this. It, it does reinforce the approach that we use when we're guiding relaunch yours. I'm actually a relaunch or myself.

Carol Fishman Cohen: I took an 11 year career break and went back to a finance career, um, after being home with kids. Uh, but we tell we launchers not to apologize and to be very brief about their career break outs and then to move on to. Immediately to why they're the best person for the job. So if the person says, what, gosh, what, tell me about the six year career break you can say, yes.

I took a career break to care for my children, and now I can't wait to get back to work. In fact, the reason I'm so excited about this position is, and then it sounds like you could segue right into what you are. 

Marc Cenedella: Yeah. Uh, you know, it's obviously it's a hindrance because it's, um, Uh, it's different from most of the candidates or, uh, professionals that they're talking to for a particular role.

So it is a bit of a hindrance and you don't want to ignore that, but it is not the reason that you will get hired or not hired as it doesn't really have that much of an impact on why are you gonna get hired or not hired? Why spend time? Right. You're saying, just get into the information that is relevant to the employer, which is how you can add value.

What is she looking to hire? What is he looking to add to his team? Thank you. That's, that's super helpful. Um, we've also noticed that you have a few pieces of advice, um, as you're out in the public domain with, um, a lot of great advice. And, um, some of that advice is constructed in terms of a single best piece of advice on a variety of topics.

Carol Fishman Cohen: And we wanted to know if you could talk about a single best piece of advice for relaunches who are making their way. Back into the workforce after an extended break. And it could really be in any category of the job search process. 

Marc Cenedella: Sure. My, my, the single best piece of advice that I stumbled upon, uh, as I've been doing career advice and advising folks for two decades is, uh, you know, when it gets to that point of the interview, when they ask, Hey, is there anything else you'd like to ask me?

Um, ask. Sure. Yeah. Uh, how do I help you get a gold star on your review next year? And this, uh, piece of advice has been the most effective. I've gotten most of the most positive feedback, and it is transformative often in the interview because it shows you in a light that the, your future employer, your future boss is unaccustomed to seeing candidates appear in.

And that is the role of somebody who is really there to help your boss get ahead. And that. Uh, you are not just concerned with your own performance or your own future, but that you realize that you're part of a team and that, uh, part of that team successes, you know, reflecting on the, uh, the boss and that you are there to, to help the boss of the team achieve shared goals.

So that's been my single best, uh, a bit of advice, uh, for a long time. And I think it all applies for me, launchers just as much, uh, as, uh, as anybody else. Right. I love that piece of advice and I, you don't hear it very often, so it's, it's really unique and I think it's important for, um, relaunches to hear this.

Carol Fishman Cohen: So thank you. Um, 

Marc Cenedella: and look, you gotta remember, this is a, you gotta be Channing Tatum. Cool. Not, you know, uh, uh, Jordan Hill, uh, you know, obsequious and kind of sniffling. Um, uh, the important thing is that you're, you're not trying to, uh, be a, a Brown noser and have a Polish or anything like that, but you're, you're simply saying, Hey, look, how do I help you get ahead in your, uh, in your own nevers?

And mostly what I hear from people is that Boston is future bosses that they asked this of say, I've never had anybody ask me that a great way to stand out for something other than what you happened to be doing. Uh, these last few years, uh, uh, and refocus all of their attention on what you're hoping they focus their attention on your future contributions to the employer.

Carol Fishman Cohen: That is great advice. You know, I'm curious about your reaction to the question that we've heard is that's a good one to ask, which is, um, if you and I were to sit down in six months and I had done an excellent job, what would I have accomplished? 

Marc Cenedella: And that's also, that's also terrific, uh, because that, uh, causes the future boss to kind of outline what are the achievements that they're looking for over the next six months.

And then you can speak to. You know, specifically how you can help, uh, help achieve those more. Probably what I recommend people do is, uh, you know, even prior to going into the interview, uh, when you're meeting with HR or you're talking to a recruiter, even if you're, you know, you're drunk during their future boss, when you're setting up that interview or that time to come in, ask what are the three most important things for the success of the person in this role?

And it should be three, not seven. It shouldn't be one. Um, three gives you a few different things that you can talk about. If you're, you know, a bit stronger in one than the others, you can, you can focus on that, but that gives you the roadmap and the, and the game plan for how you ought to structure your time in the interview.

So if your future boss says, Hey, I'm looking for, uh, uh, you know, somebody, a logistics expert, and you say, well, what are the three most important things? And they say, you know, organization ability to expand warehouses rapidly and shipping cost efficiency. You can now go through your resume and through your background and pull out the two, three, four, five bullet points and achievements that most directly speak to that.

So that when you go into the interview, you can say, Hey, what I heard you say was that these are the three most important things. Uh, is that true? And, ah, okay. It's true. It's great. Here's how I think I've delivered on those in the past and how I can deliver on those in the, uh, in the future. So that gives you a means for structuring your conversation.

Carol Fishman Cohen: That is just a heck of a lot easier than going in and winging it. Right. That that is terrific. Thank you. I've also have never heard that before, so thrilled that we're getting, um, such expert and unique advice here. Thank you. Um, so you are listening to three, two, one. I relaunch. The podcast where we talk about strategies, advice, and success stories about returning to work after a career break.

This is Carol Fishman Cohen, your host, and we are speaking with the ladders founder, Mark, send Adela, just great, getting some great wisdom from him today. So, Mark, I want to move on and ask you about. Age discrimination. Uh, relaunches tend to be, um, in their forties, fifties, and sometimes older and, um, can be highly focused on issues of age.

And we're just interested in, um, W what's your experience? Um, uh, and advice about age discrimination. You actually have an article that has the best title called when the kid interviewing you says you're too old. Um, that's, that's one of our favorites. I'm sure you've written other pieces, but just give us your thoughts on that.

Marc Cenedella: Sure. Well, first off, uh, age discrimination exists in this country. Uh, it's true. It's a real thing. I was. Shocked to find it. When I got into the business two decades ago, and it's only gotten worse, uh, over the last, uh, 20 years. So my overall advice to folks is that age discrimination is mindset discrimination.

And what that means is employers have discovered that in this very turbulent, fast moving environment, uh, that. Companies that rely on the past and sticking with the tried and true tend to get run over. And they end up being, you know, casualties and the, uh, in the marketplace. And the other hand, what they learned is that, uh, companies that are flexible and that can adapt and kind of transform their business every 18 or 36 months are the ones that tend to get ahead as a result.

What they've. Discovered is that we need people who are flexible and who can learn and who are curious and who, uh, don't have a sense of not invented here about new technology or new ways of, uh, of doing things or better for worse. Uh, many employers and many managers feel that older candidates, older professionals come to the table with.

A preconceived notion of how they're going to do their job. And aren't really very flexible and learning, uh, overall, uh, that, you know, just if we look at it, statistically, it's probably, it probably is true. And probably a young people who have been doing a particular job for 30 years probably have pretty strong opinions on how to do that job for somebody who's only been doing it a three, but for you coming back into the workforce, what you need to think about is that look while there, while there's nothing you can do to stop, um, Age discrimination.

What I observed over the years is that, uh, I've seen candidates who have succeeded, uh, despite their age. And I've seen candidates who have failed because of it. Once you succeed, despite their age, uh, come in with a open, flexible mindset that they display in their answers and their demeanor. And in the specific examples they give in the interview.

So, uh, what I mean by that is, um, it's best. If you can go into your interview and let's just go through a few examples. So a one describing situations in which you adapted a new technology, uh, to a problem at hand. So, you know, Hey, that is Slack. It has been a great tool for me, or, uh, I implemented, uh, You know, Zeplin at my, uh, company, whatever the, it was.

Some of the newer tools are explaining how you use those technologies and, um, delivered value. Now look, it's best. If the technologies that you describe are aren't from the seventies. So, you know, say you implement eight track tapes, uh, probably not your best idea. Uh, you know, another example would be recounting in the past how you were able to help.

You know, young, uh, younger staffer, uh, get to a solution that was stumping everybody. And what you want to display is look, I'm helpful. I've got some knowledge, uh, and I'm not above kind of helping people get there, not lording it over them or not. Um, uh, you know, being arrogant about it, but sharing how you're able to do that.

And then. Conversely also sharing a time when a younger staff or manager, uh, gave you feedback that you were able to put into place and be, uh, constructive with, uh, a big fear of younger managers is no matter what to tell you the candidate, you're not gonna listen to me. And even if the evidence is blaring and, uh, you know, I made a decision that we're going to go blue and not red.

Uh, the fear is that you're going to say, well, we gotta stick red because red is tried and true. It's how we've always done it. So demonstrating in your interview that that's not the case and that you're able to take feedback and actually change your behavior as a result is helpful. Um, maybe the fourth one would be sharing in a specific and vivid way.

Your passion for. Um, the specific field that you're you're in and you're trying to stay away from generalities. Oh, I love advertising, but you know, digging into what you love about photo-shoots and what you love about, um, um, you know, executing a user research or w you know, what your, uh, thrill is and kind of executing new campaigns.

And that, uh, what companies have discovered is that, you know, Passionate people who really care about the work and care about the, uh, the professional endeavor over and above working at the company, tend to do a heck of a lot better than people are just taking the job. So if you can, you know, display that and it's, it's especially helpful.

If during your break, you took some steps to, uh, scratch that itch and further develop that area of a passion. Uh, if you can share that with your interviewer, then that goes a long way to kind of showing the curiosity, the engagement, the passion, and the interest in new things that maybe when it comes to, you know, older folks in the workforce, there is a bias against bullying that they bring those to the table.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Okay, Mark. One thing that I hear you saying that, that we sometimes think about is how to convey a fearless quality about learning new things. We've heard employers say it's not as important to me that the person know every. Piece of the latest tech that's being used, but it's important to me that they have a fearless attitude about learning it, any comments on that or how to express that?

Marc Cenedella: Yeah. So I agree. And the best way to demonstrate a capability is to demonstrate that capability. So if you want to convey that you have a fearless, you know, embrace of new technologies, then go out and embrace new technologies. Do blog, have an Instagram feed, do something on Twitter, create your own a webpage.

Um, in your particular field, there's probably a wide variety of, um, new technologies being applied to your field. Find a way to show that you are actively learning about those and trying to implement them, uh, in your professional life. I know if you're coming out of the workforce and you're not currently, uh, Currently employed, you can still demonstrate a high level of interest and engagement.

And honestly, in a certain extent, you're, you have an advantage in that if you don't have any deliverables this week, because you're not, you know, don't have a full-time job, you've got way more time to dig into the training and dig into the, uh, user manual and dig into the tutorials than anybody who's got a full-time gig does.

So if. The standard software in your industry has just released version 7.9 and everybody else is still kind of on 7.6. If you dig into 7.9 and can kind of know all the new features and, uh, think through intelligently how various potential employers could implement them, that can be very helpful. Yeah, that's a really good idea.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Um, you know, we, we work with a lot of big companies on helping them to, uh, introduce, implement and expand formal mid career. Internship programs. And one of the programs that we work on is with IBM, it's called IBM tech re-entry and they hire mostly data scientists, um, in this return to work program and the people who have taken the step to go out and, and take and complete, uh, for example, an MIT ed X program in Python, um, they, that credential is, is.

Consider it legitimate and actually a high point, um, of someone's background and people who have had that kind of coursework then thrive in their program and succeed when it's over and get hired. So that's an example of, of coursework, but I love this idea of, um, focusing on the most, you know, the most used technology in a particular field, right.

And learning the latest version of it, which could be a version. As you're saying that even in the company, they haven't adapted yet. It's almost certain that they haven't adapted yet. Most, most companies are kind of at 18 or 24 months, the technology upgrade cycle. If you're digging into the next version on the three, most commonly used software programs.

Marc Cenedella: Yeah, there's almost no doubt. You're going to come into that interview with more knowledge about what the future features have then they currently have, you can say, Hey, so I imagine you guys are using the, you know, feature from acne software, uh, uh, six, seven. What do you think about the new things that they're implementing with, uh, geo and, uh, interest, you know, specificity in 69 and, uh, you know, w is that something you think you're going to be apply?

Um, Can be very, uh, can be very helpful. Um, and, and especially, um, in battling, um, ages and because, um, one of the other pieces that, that we've thought about is as an antidote to aging, it's subject matter expertise. And essentially that's what you're saying here. And if you can deliver it, you know, talk about the latest version of, uh, popular, uh, software technology.

Carol Fishman Cohen: They're going to be focusing more on the substance of what you're saying, and the fact that you are familiar with this, then the fact that you're, you know, Over over 55 and that's, that's an underscore that point. Uh, sometimes coming into an interview as an older worker, you can, uh, approach it with a little bit of fear intimidation about, Hey, am I up to date enough?

Marc Cenedella: And, uh, when this goes wrong, how people try to address that is, uh, they show up, uh, wearing clothes that reveal. Too much about their desperation baby, uh, that they're trying too hard. They're trying to learn the new bands, the new lingo of the kids, and like that's very surface and inauthentic and it doesn't work.

But if you can go up with a genuine curiosity and interest in a knowledge and a substantive knowledge about new things, then that's how you set yourself apart as. Look, I might be 30 or 35 or 40 years into my career, but today is day one of the day that we are going to get the customer's business for today.

And I am fully here and prepared and excited about applying all the tools and resources and learnings that I have to that problem here today. Wonderful. Thank you. That is so valuable, uh, for our, our relaunch or community. Um, Mark, let me just change the topic for a minute and ask you, why did you start the ladders?

Carol Fishman Cohen: And can you explain what the ladders is and how we launchers could best use it as a, as a tool as they are proceeding through their relaunch? 

Marc Cenedella: Uh, sure. We're, uh, uh, we're a community for folks at the higher end of the professional range. We focus on a hundred K plus careers. Um, I started the business, uh, 15 years ago in, uh, Manhattan after being an, uh, senior vice president at HotJobs, which was the number two job board and the country behind monster during the first kind of internet era.

Uh, we sold that business to Yahoo for a half billion dollars, um, uh, back in 2002. And, uh, I I've just always been fascinated about, uh, Uh, work in economics, um, before business school. And then I think coming out of business school, it was, uh, uh, I stumbled into hot jobs and was just really fascinating to me, this application of, uh, the hard stuff to the soft stuff.

So, you know, online recruitment is applying computation and statistics and data science, the hard stuff to the soft stuff of people's. Uh, fears and emotions and ambitions and, uh, desires and, um, uh, you know, careers. And so I really just find that super engaging and interesting. So I started a newsletter focused on hundred K plus careers, 15 years ago, uh, with three subscribers in August of 2003.

And today we've got 10 million subscribers, uh, We provide news information, entertainment, advice, and tools to people in the a hundred K plus community that ends up being about the top 25% of the, uh, of the workforce. And, you know, we're here to help you get ahead in your career and it's everything from, you know, light-hearted articles about, uh, you know, words that people use wrong or use right in the office to serious stuff about, you know, dealing with, uh, Okay.

The harassment issues that are in the, uh, in the, in the news today, or dealing with age-ism or dealing with, uh, uh, you know, getting the promotions and getting ahead in your current job all the way over to tools, uh, where we've got 300,000, uh, jobs paying over a hundred grand live on the site today, and you can go through and apply and look, uh, you know, uh, interact with recruiters.

So that's what ladders does. And, um, you know, I, I love. The career space and everything about it. 

Carol Fishman Cohen: Wow. That's, that's incredible. I love hearing that story and, um, how far you've come since the very beginning of it and in really not that long of a time. Uh, w when you think about it, uh, well, thank you. Um, Mark, we want to wrap up by asking you the question that we ask all of our podcast, guests, and that is your favorite piece of advice. Uh, for relaunches, even if it's something that we've already talked about in our conversation today. 

Marc Cenedella: So, uh, I think specifically for relaunches, what I'd say is your, uh, coming back into the workforce and your highest anxiety is probably in addition to a little bit of worry about, you know, how will I do once I get a job is figuring out where that job is.

And I've been a little bit disconnected, uh, maybe, and I haven't. Cause I haven't been spending a hundred percent of my time on it. And so you have this high level anxiety that then left to its own devices. You tend to apply, uh, to drilling into all of your friends and contacts with, do you know any about any jobs and that's an error.

Uh, and I think the favorite piece of advice, uh, for relaunches is going to be something I cribs. From, uh, John Lux who wrote rites of passage, uh, and he's not passed away, but, uh, it was a great piece of advice. I met him earlier in my, uh, early in my career. And his advice was when you're, when you're looking for a role and you're talking to your network, uh, don't ask for a job, ask for a reference.

And what I mean by that is most of the folks that you. Are going to talk to or network with, or go back out to reconnecting coffee or breakfast or lunch with, they're just not focused on the job market. They're focused on doing their job. So when you're asked them, Hey, do you know about any jobs open? The truth is the answer is no, because they're not thinking about it.

And by asking them a question that they have to tell you, no, now they feel bad. You feel bad, you haven't gotten anywhere. So, uh, John's bit of advice that, uh, I'll repurpose here is. Don't ask for a job, ask for a reference. So when you're reconnecting, uh, with your old friend, Sally, that you worked with, you know, 10 years ago, uh, Hey Sally, uh, when it gets to that point in this job search, you know how to eventually get to that point.

Uh, can I use you as a reference now? Most people will say yes. And that does a few things. One is they feel a little bit flattered that you think about using it as a, uh, as a reference. It's easy to say, yes, doesn't cost them anything, uh, at, to say yesterday. And it turns them into somebody who's now rooting for you a little bit.

And as opposed to having to say no and feel bad that they didn't have a job for you. Now, they've got a little bit of a positive thing and you're in a little bit in the back of their head. So that over the next four weeks, eight weeks, 12 weeks is they're just going about their day to day. Maybe when they hear about something open, it'll just jig or something in their mind.

Ah, I should tell my friend about, uh, about this role. So it's a small difference that leads to a big change in outcome where, uh, your, um, uh, moving from, Hey, do you know about any jobs too? Would you be a reference, changes it from a, you know, a negative and not really any place to go to a positive that could lead to a lot of good stuff in the future for you?

Carol Fishman Cohen: I love that advice. Thank you, Mark so much. Uh, and thank you for joining us today and sharing your wisdom. We are so privileged to be able to hear from you. Uh, can you tell our audience how to find out more about the ladders?

Marc Cenedella:  Sure. You can go to, uh, the ladders.com T H E L a D D E R s.com. And I've also got two best-selling books on Amazon, uh, ladders, 2018 resume guide and Laura's 2018 interviews guide.

Uh, they've just search on my last name, Cenedella or ladders. You'll be able to find their in Kindle version only, um, uh, on Amazon.

Carol Fishman Cohen:  Thank you and it's Cenedella just so people know is spelled C E N E D E LLA. 

Marc Cenedella: Right. I'll just keep going with the vowels. A lot of vowels

Carol Fishman Cohen: . That's great. All right. Thank you, Mark for joining us today.

Marc Cenedella: Thanks so much. Y

Carol Fishman Cohen: You have been listening to three, two, one. I relaunched the podcast where we discuss strategies. advice and success stories about returning to work after a career break. And we were thrilled to have Marc Cenedella the founder of the ladders as our guest for today. I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, the chair and co-founder of I relaunch and your host for more information about I relaunch go to Irelaunch.com.

And if you liked this podcast, be sure to rate it on iTunes and your favorite podcast platform, and be sure to share this podcast with a friend on Facebook, Twitter, and other social media. Thanks for joining us. .