Transcript

Episode 12: "Getting Your Family Involved in Your Relaunch" with Michelle Friedman

 

Carol Fishman Cohen: Welcome to three, two, one. I relaunch. I'm Carol Fishman Cohen, CEO, and co-founder of I relaunch, the industry leader in career re-entry resources. In each episode of three, two, one, I relaunch we'll be speaking with guest experts in the career reentry space to help make your transition back to work smooth and successful.

Hello everyone. Today, we are going to be talking about the best ways to involve your family in your relaunch. We're very excited to be speaking with Michelle Friedman about this topic. Michelle is founder of advancing women's careers, a coaching and consulting firm based outside of New York city. She's a certified executive coach and organizational consultant, a facilitator and speaker.

Her expertise is in women's career paths. Michelle is a special advisor to I relaunch and collaborates with I relaunch on a range of initiatives. Hi Michelle, thank you for being with us today, 

Michelle Friedman: Carol. Hi, so nice to see you and talk to you. 

Carol Fishman Cohen: So Michelle, you and I have spoken widely about this topic, how to channel support from your family when you're considering a return to work.

I want to engage in this topic because sometimes these conversations go smoothly and sometimes they don't. And we want to talk about probably more of those situations where the conversations are difficult. So just to start off, what kinds of steps or conversations do you think you should be having with your family along the way when you are relaunching?

Michelle Friedman: Well, this is a great topic to be talking about because we know how important having support is during a relaunch and particularly from the people who you live with and spend a lot of time with, your spouse and family members. and the truth is, is that not only is this a transition for the person who's returning to work, but there's really a transition also happening for everybody in the household and your being home has likely been very helpful, extremely convenient to the people that you live with.

And they probably have become, really, accustomed to having unlimited accessibility to the person who's been home. So, you know, Carol naturally, I think that they're wondering, what does this mean for me? When, when the primary parent or caregiver is going back to work. So, you know, what I like to encourage clients to think about is the full effects of this kind of change.

Not just is, you know, what's going to be the challenge, but also, you know, what's, what's going to be a benefit or what's an opportunity or what could be fun about this for everyone in the family. And so sort of look at it holistically with an open mind and be flexible in thinking about it and, and make this sort of an exercise for the whole family to talk about together.

Carol Fishman Cohen: I love the concept. I'm really interested in the implementation. So can you give an example of what would be a conversation starter that would illustrate this, this, this whole idea. 

Michelle Friedman: Yeah. Well, I think starting with your spouse is probably the place to begin or your partner, spouse, partner, the other grownups in the household.

And, and sharing with them, why this is important to you. And maybe you've already started to have these kinds of conversations because we know a relaunch is not just sort of an overnight thing. It's a, it's, a process that takes place over time. And we're hoping that there's gonna be lots of conversations happening over this transition process.

So sharing with them initially, or continuing to talk about why this is important to you and things that you and I often hear are sort of a desire for personal and professional growth for the person who's relaunching to feel like they're learning and being challenged, of course, contributing to the family income.

That's that's a biggie. Right. And, what I also hear a lot of this comes up quite a bit, is this idea of role modeling. So what kind of role models do the grownups in the house want to set for the, the kids and this is not just for daughters, but also for sons. I personally have three teenage sons and it's really important for me that they grow up seeing what men and women can do, and how this is gonna affect how they think about their own possibilities and their own families. And so when you talk about why this is important to you, I think what you'll be looking for is what are the intersections between that and, and how, what, how this is important for your spouse. and you'll probably find many things in common with that.

Carol Fishman Cohen: I like that. And, and do you have different advice for people at different stages in this process? And is there a way to set the stage maybe initially that leads the later conversations to be better and smoother for everyone? 

Michelle Friedman: Yeah. I think getting some of this stuff out upfront is, is really helpful.

So we, we just talked about something positive, you know, sort of what your hopes are, what your goals are, but I think also sharing your concerns, here, you know, I would love to be doing this, but actually like this, this, this is the piece of it that worries me. And you know, what do you think about that?

And sort of getting all of that out on the table early on means that you can be in this like ongoing collaborative conversation and, and you can be talking about those things and working on them because, that way, you know, until you know, really what your goals are and what you think your assumed challenges are, it's, it's really hard to have a follow-up conversations. And I do think that that sets the stage. And when I say assumed challenges, you know, I'm sure you've seen this quite a bit is oftentimes the things that feel like the biggest fears can be a little bit overblown or in truth are easily solved for, with a little bit of planning.

So getting that stuff out on the table early on, I think can be very helpful and then continuing to check in. 

Carol Fishman Cohen: Right. And I also think that depending where your spouse or partner is in their careers is a factor, a big factor, you know, have they been in their role for a long time and are relatively secure in it?

Do they have a lot of control over their schedule or on the flip side, did they just change jobs? Are they not secure in their role? can you comment on that give and take when the spouse or partner themselves has either great job security or not such great service job security, or, or maybe they love what they're doing or they don't love what they do.

Michelle Friedman: Yeah. Yeah. Well, It's a great point because this isn't all about you and the person who's relaunching. and to be sensitive to the fact that, you know, other people are going through whatever they're going through in their own lives. So, we had talked earlier about this idea of like doing a little bit of visioning and saying, you know, sitting down saying, and maybe this is over a glass of wine, or just at a time where you're just really relaxed and talking and saying like, if you were to close your eyes and, you know, and I relaunched and it's a year from now. What do you think the best case scenario could look like? You know, for me, but especially for you, I know, you know, what do you have going on in your career over the next year? And is it a time where you feel like you're going to be able to pull back and be more involved at home?

Is it a time that you're going to need even more support at home and having that kind of a conversation creates the room for the other person. And then you sort of compare that the two paths and the two chapters that you're in and then you figure out how do we make this work together? 

Carol Fishman Cohen: I love that.

I, I think that is just such a great construct to, think about how the relaunch is gonna affect everyone. And I love that it acknowledges the issues that the spouse or partner is facing as well. Let's move on to other members of the household, namely children. So there are some listeners who, don't have children and don't plan to, and there are listeners where children are like a key part of the conversation, as a person's relaunching.

So let's, focus in on that particular piece of it. Do you have special recommendations on how relaunchers should be speaking to their kids or with their kids and maybe talking about kids of different ages and how you might change your strategy or just, you're not, it doesn't have to be a strategy, but how you change your conversations, depending on how old the kids are.

Michelle Friedman: Yeah, right. yeah, certainly the, the age of the kids and their developmental maturity and all that is, is a big piece of it. And you want to take that into account, but I think that there's an over arching philosophy that I have, which is involve them in it and involve them in, in, in it to whatever extent they are able to be involved.

like I said, based on, based on their age. So, you know, certainly this looks very different for a five-year-old than a 15 year old. But there's, I think a way to, again, be in conversation with them so that together you can agree on what are the key things that they really want to try to stay the same as much as possible.

And. How can you brainstorm maybe on some new traditions that could be put in place that maybe don't exist now? I think, you know, people are often really surprised that little things can be very powerful. So if you've been, as someone who's been home, really super accessible all the time, we start to think about it's about the quantity of time that we're in front of our kids available to our kids.

And it's, you know, and then when you go back to work, you realize, well, maybe it's really just not the quantity of the time. It's and it sounds like a cliche, it's the quality, but really what I mean, it's the meaning of the time. And I'll give you an example, you know, sort of being there for your kids means different things to different people.

And, you know, if, You know, I have a 15 year old son who I, when I can I take him to school in the morning, I liked doing that. I like being with him. Truly he's half asleep during that ride to school. Right. We can't even have a conversation. He just kind of nods and, you know, And our best time is later in the day then before he goes to sleep.

So if I had to give up that drive just one there's many times that I need to because of work commitments, I'm okay doing that. It's not the quantity of the time that I spend with him. I know that really the better time is later in the day and he might say the same thing actually. Right. and a little kid may say, Oh, well, you're not going to take me to school, but are you still going to be reading my book with me every night and finding out from them, like what, what did they really want to stay the same as much as possible?

And like I said, you know, are there new things you can add in like, well, I won't be able to do this with you, but what about every Saturday morning? As much as we can, you and I are going to do this together and that new tradition. may end up outweighing some of the things that you think are going to be, lost along the way that maybe will not be that big of an issue.

Carol Fishman Cohen: You know, it's reminding me this conversation is reminding me of an interview that we had when, Vivian steer Raven. And I wrote back on the career track. And I remember interviewing a rabbi who had returned to work. after a long career break, she also has three boys. And she said, she realized that when she, once she was relaunched, when she came home, she had a need to sort of. ask her kids to sort of recap the day, but they didn't want to do that. Her youngest son, really just wanted to throw, throw a ball around in the backyard with her and was much happier doing that than having this well, let's talk about our day kind of conversation. So this understanding about what that most important thing is from your child's perspective and not yours is so important. I'm glad you mentioned that. 

Michelle Friedman: Yeah, it's about not making assumptions. Right. And being in a conversation that allows them to have input, right. Because some of the best solutions come out of their mouth. And I think the person who's relaunching spends a lot of thinking time, trying to figure this all out, but you're, you're really.

If you look at it, sort of collaboratively that together, you guys will all figure it out. And there's a lot of good information from your family, right? it, it puts, I think it puts less pressure on the person that's going back to work and it, it allows them to also concentrate more on the job search and not maybe worry as much about the impact on the family, because it's not up to them to solve everything themselves.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Right. I'm actually, I'm wondering about a part of the process. I wanted to get your opinion on this. so. I always thought it's valuable for the kids to see you try and fail as well as try and succeed. So when you're going through, you know, job search, you're likely to go through a period of time where you're applying for jobs, or you even get a certain percent through the process and then you're eliminated as a candidate.

And, that this is actually a valuable moment. I don't know if you want to call it a teaching moment, just so valuable, interactive moment with your child to say, you know, I really wanted that and I worked really hard and then I didn't get it. And, and, and just to have them be in the role of receiving news like that about you.

Michelle Friedman: Yeah, I agree. And I think it helps them relate your process to things that they're very familiar with in their own lives. And again, this, I, I think you can customize this for any age level. but it, it, it lets them, it doesn't seem like this job search, or relaunch process is so foreign,  that they have things in their own life that are quite similar.

You know, remember that time you joined that team and you didn't know the coach and any of the other players on the team and it took you a while to get to know people. and you weren't sure if you were going to like it. I mean that, that's a parallel to starting  a new job and you can help them draw the connections and then you can actually turn the tables and ask them for advice and allow them to be in the role of sort of coaching you.

And I've often seen kids get really excited, for their parents like, wow, mom, this is a big day for you. Have you picked out your clothes for your first day at work? and, and then you can send your kid, well, can you tell me about a time that you had something like this? What tips do you have for me?

And it really empowers them to feel like they can give something back to you and that they're, they're part of your success in the same ways that they probably have felt you being very, supportive as they try challenges. 

Carol Fishman Cohen: Yes. I love that advice. It's spot on. can we shift gears and talk about maybe the practical side?

So what is life look like when, mom or dad whoever is the at home parent who is now relaunching, is suddenly, has reduced amount of time to contribute to the household. So. How does, who picks up that Slack? What are the conversations and how would that work? 

Michelle Friedman: Yeah, well, it's certainly a truth that it takes a lot nowadays to run a household.

And, if there are kids in the household household to, to raise those kids, Right. And who knows it better than the person who's been doing it? Full-time or part-time at home and who's now making that change. So, you know, the way I look at it is that, there is a whole list of things on that list that, goes into running the household and taking care of kids.

And it's a great exercise to just sit down. Maybe over another glass of wine. you know, I guess what I'm saying say is at times where you're relaxed and sort of open-minded and, and get out a piece of paper and just do a brain dump, and maybe you do this with your spouse initially, or your partner, maybe you involve the whole family, you could put this on, you know, a whiteboard, but you know, what does, what does it take to keep this household running and just do a brain dump of everything on that list?

And I guess I first want to say that I really strongly believe in this concept of co-parenting and sharing responsibilities at home. So once you get that list out there, you might notice, wow. I, I tend to do a lot of that stuff and some of these patterns have been set in place over, unconsciously over time  just because maybe you've been the person who's been more available, but it's a great opportunity to reevaluate, you know, what do you actually enjoy doing? Maybe there are things that other people in the house enjoy doing, or haven't had a chance to do that you've have sort of owned, over time. And it's, I think, I think it's, you know, sort of like everything's up for grabs, you know, when you, when you put it out on a piece of paper and  it's a chance for maybe you and your spouse, or if you have your kids involved at this point saying, you know, from that list, if I wrote down on a piece of paper, whether the things I still really want to be doing right, and I might really enjoy cooking, I might enjoy,  you know, other, 

Carol Fishman Cohen: I might enjoy taking out the trash.

Michelle Friedman: I mean, there are people who enjoy folding laundry. That's very meditative to them. And if they had to choose from a list that would be something they would really like to hold on to. Right. And there's plenty of things we'd like to not do anymore. And so, so then there's that list of what do I not want to be doing anymore?

And then what's negotiable, what's in between. and then from that, at least you're getting some sort of clarity around either, what do I enjoy? What are my strengths or what are the things I, it just doesn't even make sense for me to be doing and ask your spouse to do the same thing. And once you kind of have it all out on paper, and you can sort of divvy things up a little bit, Then look at what are the low value tasks that maybe nobody wants to do or where it's not worth, everybody's time to be doing.

And, you know, is there an opportunity for outsourcing there and maybe that's bringing a little bit of help with cleaning, or having kids pick up something, some, some sort of tasks, but it's the reality is there's going to be less hours in the day to be doing what has been happening before. So how are those hours going to get made up?

And where do you want to be spending your time when you're at home or with your family? And this is, this is a hard thing for some people it's hard to let go. Of the things that they've been doing either because of a control issue or a sense of no one's gonna be able to do it as well as I did it, or it might even be that question.

And maybe we can talk a little bit about this with, you know, well, gosh, if I have to hire childcare and maybe now I have to help hire some help with errands or cleaning around the house, does it even make sense for me to go back to work? And that's, that's another piece of the discussion that we can get into if we have time, but.

I think you have to take a realistic look at how much time everybody has in their day, what they want to be doing. and what are the things they absolutely don't want to be doing? And are there solutions for that? 

Carol Fishman Cohen: Right. I, I remember another interview, for back on the career track where, a mom who was a doctor was going back to work, and she had taken her career break when her, starting when her youngest was five. So she had worked through the early years then took a career break between when they were five and I think her oldest was 12 and then she was going back and they had a family meeting and she said, you know, each person in this household owes this household 30 minutes a day of chores or to something contributing to make it run.

And they had the kids be very involved. Another mom had one kid be responsible for dinner one night, a week. And that included, Saying what the ingredient list was going to be by Sunday at noon. So the weekly grocery shop could include the ingredients for that kid's meal. And she said, even if it was pasta and water, that's the, the kid was responsible for getting the grocery list and making the dinner that evening.

And she said she had a seventh grade boy who initially was very unenthusiastic about this, but over time became pretty possessive about his dinner night. So it's interesting to see kids evolve in terms of their responsibility. And there's a lot of good arguments for why it's great for kids to have to take on those responsibilities.

Michelle Friedman: Oh, sure. I mean, I think if you asked them, they'd probably prefer that things are done for them, but the truth is, is that this is a chance for them to explore their capabilities, and to build confidence and self-efficacy, and there's a lot of talk around, you know, do we overpraise our kids for things, you know, that they don't necessarily deserve praise for it.

But, but I think in this case, men, when they are taking on new responsibilities and doing well, and discovering things about themselves that's it's, it's, that's also a great teaching moment for them. 

Carol Fishman Cohen: let's talk about timing a little bit, and let's assume we're talking about, elementary school, age, children up for this piece of it.

how far in advance do you recommend that people put certain parts of coverage or other changes in their kids on day to day routines in place. 

Michelle Friedman: Yeah. some of this depends on the child, because as we know, there are some kids who, the earlier you tell them about a potential change, the more anxious that can make them.

Right. So I think you have to know who you're working with here. excuse me, but. But we also know that looking for a job in a sense is, is a bit of a job. And that requires time and focus. So while you're in the process of relaunching, it's a nice time to start introducing some of the, the changes that may be happening in a more systematic or dramatic way once you've, once you go back to work. so I guess once, once you have a sense of, you know, is my child ready to hear this? And how much do I want to share at this point than, maybe you said, you know, mom or dad is going to be, you know, out for a few hours this afternoon having some meetings.

So we're going to have a babysitter come over and it's, you know, I think it does in a way, ease them into what the new normal might end up looking like down the road. 

Carol Fishman Cohen: Great. Yeah, it's really interesting. I remember, writing about how kids think whatever is their norm, whether both parents or partners are working full-time right from the get-go or one person is home it's, that's their normal and that's, that's just how the world works to them.

And it's when you change that one way or the other, it's not whether you're working or not working, but whether you're transitioning that that's the tricky part to manage. So. The idea that you sort of dip your toe in a little bit and have some, preliminary situations while you're job searching where you're not there in the afternoon and someone else is, or maybe at some point you. want them to participate in, in the afterschool program. So, maybe even during your job search, you would potentially sign them up for this. So they are not attaching the moment you go back to work to the moment that they started in the after-school program, but those are staggered a bit. 

Michelle Friedman: Yeah, and there can be multiple motivations for signing them up for that afterschool program.

It could be that the timing in your mind is driven by the fact that you need a little bit more coverage in order to be doing the work of your relaunch, but this could be, an interest that they have had for a while that now they're gonna get to do a class in that. and. So, yeah, I think too, to make sure that not everything is directly connected to the re-entry, but there's lots of good reasons why, why this might be happening and lots of benefits.

Carol Fishman Cohen: so you touched on this concept before about, does it even make sense for me to go back with all these expenses? Can you just elaborate on that for a minute before we wrap up our conversation? 

Michelle Friedman: Sure. well, I think it's, it's a natural question for people to ask. And certainly if you, if you or someone in your household is a numbers person and is sort of a rational thinker, they may look at the economics of it and that's absolutely something that is worth taking a look at at, but I also encourage that, evaluation to happen in sort of taking a long view. Careers last a long time. I mean, we worked from our twenties to let's say our sixties or beyond. If we like what we do and it fits in our life. And, depending on where you are in, in that timeframe, you could have a pretty long runway ahead of you in terms of years to be working. And you know, when you're not working or I should say, when you go back to work, what you're regaining is more than just your annual salary.

And that's really, that's really something to be thinking about. You're regaining an opportunity to have salary growth that doesn't happen when you're not working. There are other benefits that are come with a job and just think about, let's say a 401k match from an employer that is, that is income that you don't have when you're not working.

So, I think the longer, and of course this goes up over time. The sooner you go back to work, the sooner you can reestablish that salary and start building it and getting it. So it's, it's really not just the salary itself. I think it's all of the upside that accumulates over time that has to be calculated.

And, and, and maybe you've seen this as well, Carol, that the longer somebody is on a career break, the, in many cases, the harder it is to return to work. So if, once you start thinking now is the time, even if the financials don't make sense, because you'd need a lot of childcare based on the ages of your children, childcare costs go down over time as the kids get older. And this may only be a situation for a couple of years. 

Carol Fishman Cohen: Right. I completely agree, that you're investing in yourself and in your future earnings when you return to work. So even if you experience what you're perceiving as a breakeven proposition for a couple of years, it's as you're saying, those childcare costs will decrease over time. and the other way to think about it is when you're evaluating this with a spouse or partner, to look at those expenses against your combined projected income, as opposed to that I'm going to make this incremental amount and that's going to be completely wiped out by the incremental amount of additional expenses.

So that's, you should really be looking at it as your joint projected income and weighing those total expenses against that number. If so, if someone's a numbers person, that's how they should technically be looking at it and properly. 

Michelle Friedman: Right. Right. If they're a numbers person, I also saw a really interesting online calculator.

Maybe you've seen this from, the center for American progress. So if anyone is out there and likes to look that up that's American progress.org, and they released a calculator recently to compute that the true cost of a career break. And it's very eye opening when you take in all the, factors we talked about today.

And I think that that gives somebody some of that, analytical information, that might help with the decision and then putting all of that aside, you can't put a dollar value on feeling more fulfilled, you know, being, maybe a happier person. If you have a piece of your identity also fulfilled by working.

So there's, there's lots of other factors aside from that calculation over the next few years. 

Carol Fishman Cohen: Wonderful. I think that's excellent, excellent advice. Michelle, I just want to ask you a final question that we ask whenever we have a podcast, and that is what is your favorite piece of relaunch advice, even if it's something that you already said during this podcast?

Michelle Friedman: Sure. Well, I think it's getting to know what your own definition of success is in this chapter of your life and your career. It might look really different than the last time you worked and understanding what's going to make this feel successful for you now and for those around you. And we certainly have talked about that, on this podcast.

And as you're getting clear on that, Be willing to let go and set reasonable expectations for yourself. you know, people think, I think tend to put a lot of pressure on themselves and if we let go of perfectionism and we realize that this is a work in progress, it's a transition. before you know, it you'll have it mastered just like other things you've accomplished before and to celebrate the little accomplishments along the way.

Carol Fishman Cohen: Excellent advice. Great wisdom. Thank you so much, Michelle, for joining us today. 

Michelle Friedman: Thanks Carol. It's been a pleasure talking with you 

Carol Fishman Cohen: for more information about Michelle or her firm advancing women's careers contact us at [email protected] and for more information about the I relaunch bootcamps, where we go into detail about assessing career options and the job search tactics that you need to take to relaunch your career be sure to visit  irelaunch.com/bootcamp. That's irelaunch.com forward slash bootcamp.

If you have any comments or questions, please email us at [email protected]. And be sure to visit our website. irelaunch.com.